Discussion:
[jruby-dev] JRuby opinion: JDBC, Goldspike, JRuby servlet and extras should all be integrated in one distribution
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M C
2007-05-27 18:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Warning: This is my personal opinion so be prepared to possibly disagree :-)

As a consultant I do work ranging from Microsoft .NET, Java to Ruby/Rails so I get lots of impressions of what is good/bad in all worlds.

One of the (few :-)) great things of the Microsoft platform is how integrated and singular everything is. F.ex. Visual studio has everything you need in one product out of the box. Compare this with java world where users may have to chose between 50 different frameworks/libraries followed by more or less extensive configuration since the different pieces are not integrated. In particular for THE java IDE, eclipse, before the product is really useful, the user has to know to go to update the product with extensions for their particular needs as the standard download only comes with basic features which are likely to suit only a few.

Let's not repeat Java's mistake of non-integration in Ruby/JRuby. In my view, it is already getting awfully complicated with all the extensions and basic addons to JRuby. I say that JDBC, Goldspike, JRuby servlet and other great basic extras should all be integrated in one integrated distribution that we can point developers to (in addition you could add a JRuby-basic download for experts). Besides being easier for ordinary developers, this would also send a more powerful message about the real scope of JRuby's Java support!.

Just my $0.2

/ Morten




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Ola Bini
2007-05-27 18:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M C
Warning: This is my personal opinion so be prepared to possibly disagree :-)
As a consultant I do work ranging from Microsoft .NET, Java to
Ruby/Rails so I get lots of impressions of what is good/bad in all worlds.
One of the (few :-)) great things of the Microsoft platform is how
integrated and singular everything is. F.ex. Visual studio has
everything you need in one product out of the box. Compare this with
java world where users may have to chose between 50 different
frameworks/libraries followed by more or less extensive configuration
since the different pieces are not integrated. In particular for THE
java IDE, eclipse, before the product is really useful, the user has
to know to go to update the product with extensions for their
particular needs as the standard download only comes with basic
features which are likely to suit only a few.
Let's not repeat Java's mistake of non-integration in Ruby/JRuby. In
my view, it is already getting awfully complicated with all the
extensions and basic addons to JRuby. I say that JDBC, Goldspike,
JRuby servlet and other great basic extras should all be integrated in
one integrated distribution that we can point developers to (in
addition you could add a JRuby-basic download for experts). Besides
being easier for ordinary developers, this would also send a more
powerful message about the real scope of JRuby's Java support!.
Just my $0.2
Hi Morten,

You know I don't wholeheartedly agree with this approach. On the other
hand, it would make sense to package a downloadable JRuby on
Rails-package, which a customized war.rb for Derby use, and things like
that.
--
Ola Bini (http://ola-bini.blogspot.com)
JvYAML, RbYAML, JRuby and Jatha contributor
System Developer, Karolinska Institutet (http://www.ki.se)
OLogix Consulting (http://www.ologix.com)

"Yields falsehood when quined" yields falsehood when quined.



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M C
2007-05-27 18:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Ola Bini <ola.bini-***@public.gmane.org> skrev:
Hi Morten,

You know I don't wholeheartedly agree with this approach. On the other
hand, it would make sense to package a downloadable JRuby on
Rails-package, which a customized war.rb for Derby use, and things like
that.
Hi Ola,

Yea, I remember that you don't like me idea when we first talked about it at RailsConf. However, I hope to be able to persuade you otherwise which is the reason I wrote a message about it explaining my argument in details.

I personally think that better integration will help a lot in getting JRuby adapted and fully recognized for all its great benefits and possibilities! The current strategy with separate projects only complicates matters, hides 50% of the most powerful features / real benefit for users that do not know the JRuby world well.

P.S. Nice talking to you at RailsConf and thanks for arranging a cool t-shirt for me (even though I am still not sure I fully deserve it as I have only helped a little so far).

Sincerely,
Morten




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Ola Bini
2007-05-27 18:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ola Bini
Hi Morten,
You know I don't wholeheartedly agree with this approach. On the other
hand, it would make sense to package a downloadable JRuby on
Rails-package, which a customized war.rb for Derby use, and things like
that.
Hi Ola,
Yea, I remember that you don't like me idea when we first talked about
it at RailsConf. However, I hope to be able to persuade you otherwise
which is the reason I wrote a message about it explaining my argument
in details.
I personally think that better integration will help a lot in getting
JRuby adapted and fully recognized for all its great benefits and
possibilities! The current strategy with separate projects only
complicates matters, hides 50% of the most powerful features / real
benefit for users that do not know the JRuby world well.
P.S. Nice talking to you at RailsConf and thanks for arranging a cool
t-shirt for me (even though I am still not sure I fully deserve it as
I have only helped a little so far).
Hehe, of course you deserved it.

And no, I don't necessarily think better integration is a good idea, at
least not if it means bundling stuff that we choose together and making
it more "advanced" to use other solutions. Opinionated software works
fine for Rails, but I don't think it's a good model for a language
implementation. Further, you pay a price for the kind of integration
that MS gives you; namely the lack of choice. The one mainline thing is
very easy to do, but you do it with components decided by MS. As soon as
you stray from the MS path, everything gets much harder. I don't want to
see that happen with JRuby. Which is way I think it would be wrong
making something like goldspike more integrated (there are many who
don't like the way goldspike works at all), it would be wrong to make
assumptions on which database a user wants to use (I mean seriously, a
major selling point for JRuby on Rails is the fact that you get to
choose among millions of JDBC drivers). I do believe we can make all
these things easier (like Nick said, understand Rails db configs better,
and things like that), but I don't want to let it get in the way of
extensibility.

I guess I'm coming across as elitistic in this mail, but I truly believe
in not tying the hands of the power users.
--
Ola Bini (http://ola-bini.blogspot.com)
JvYAML, RbYAML, JRuby and Jatha contributor
System Developer, Karolinska Institutet (http://www.ki.se)
OLogix Consulting (http://www.ologix.com)

"Yields falsehood when quined" yields falsehood when quined.



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Nick Sieger
2007-05-27 18:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ola Bini
And no, I don't necessarily think better integration is a good idea, at
least not if it means bundling stuff that we choose together and making
it more "advanced" to use other solutions. Opinionated software works
fine for Rails, but I don't think it's a good model for a language
implementation. Further, you pay a price for the kind of integration
that MS gives you; namely the lack of choice. The one mainline thing is
very easy to do, but you do it with components decided by MS. As soon as
you stray from the MS path, everything gets much harder. I don't want to
see that happen with JRuby. Which is way I think it would be wrong
making something like goldspike more integrated (there are many who
don't like the way goldspike works at all), it would be wrong to make
assumptions on which database a user wants to use (I mean seriously, a
major selling point for JRuby on Rails is the fact that you get to
choose among millions of JDBC drivers). I do believe we can make all
these things easier (like Nick said, understand Rails db configs better,
and things like that), but I don't want to let it get in the way of
extensibility.
I guess I understood Morten's suggestion as bundling AR-JDBC,
Goldspike, and servlets together, *but not* with JRuby itself. If
that was the case, then I'd disagree as well. But if we could have a
single package that, once gem installed, would include AR-JDBC,
Goldspike, servlet glue, and glassfish, that would be worthwhile.

/Nick

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Nick Sieger
2007-05-27 18:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by M C
Warning: This is my personal opinion so be prepared to possibly disagree :-)
Let's not repeat Java's mistake of non-integration in Ruby/JRuby. In my
view, it is already getting awfully complicated with all the extensions and
basic addons to JRuby. I say that JDBC, Goldspike, JRuby servlet and other
great basic extras should all be integrated in one integrated distribution
that we can point developers to (in addition you could add a JRuby-basic
download for experts). Besides being easier for ordinary developers, this
would also send a more powerful message about the real scope of JRuby's Java
support!.
I think this is a good idea and something to set our sights on. We do have
a few things to take care of before we get there, but I think it should be
possible.

Some of the things are: more transparent JDBC support (no need to know jdbc
urls, clean integration with Rails config/environment, i.e., no need to
modify), more transparent war.rb, etc.

Cheers,
/Nick
Charles Oliver Nutter
2007-05-27 18:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by M C
Warning: This is my personal opinion so be prepared to possibly disagree :-)
As a consultant I do work ranging from Microsoft .NET, Java to
Ruby/Rails so I get lots of impressions of what is good/bad in all worlds.
One of the (few :-)) great things of the Microsoft platform is how
integrated and singular everything is. F.ex. Visual studio has
everything you need in one product out of the box. Compare this with
java world where users may have to chose between 50 different
frameworks/libraries followed by more or less extensive configuration
since the different pieces are not integrated. In particular for THE
java IDE, eclipse, before the product is really useful, the user has to
know to go to update the product with extensions for their particular
needs as the standard download only comes with basic features which are
likely to suit only a few.
Let's not repeat Java's mistake of non-integration in Ruby/JRuby. In my
view, it is already getting awfully complicated with all the extensions
and basic addons to JRuby. I say that JDBC, Goldspike, JRuby servlet and
other great basic extras should all be integrated in one integrated
distribution that we can point developers to (in addition you could add
a JRuby-basic download for experts). Besides being easier for ordinary
developers, this would also send a more powerful message about the real
scope of JRuby's Java support!.
I think we should follow Linux's model here, not Microsoft's. For JRuby,
that means keeping the core lean and compact, not adding in every new
feature that comes along. This has caused some other language impls like
Groovy to now require tens of megabytes of dependencies. What we should
continue to do is cultivate these projects separately, as well as
cultivating alternative distributions of JRuby that include some or all
of them.

Not everyone wants a swing builder. Not everyone wants Rails. Not
everyone wants all these extra pieces that aren't required to run Ruby.
So we should not force it on them.

- Charlie

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M C
2007-05-27 19:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Charles Oliver Nutter <charles.nutter-xsfywfwIY+***@public.gmane.org> skrev:I think we should follow Linux's model here, not Microsoft's. For JRuby,
that means keeping the core lean and compact, not adding in every new
feature that comes along. This has caused some other language impls like
Groovy to now require tens of megabytes of dependencies. What we should
continue to do is cultivate these projects separately, as well as
cultivating alternative distributions of JRuby that include some or all
of them.

Not everyone wants a swing builder. Not everyone wants Rails. Not
everyone wants all these extra pieces that aren't required to run Ruby.
So we should not force it on them.
I am not trying to sound like a die-hard Microsoft-fan here (which I am not!), but one problem with the Linux was is that there are so many alternative distributions, packing formats, user-interfaces etc. This makes it hard to actually provide complete products (like Oracle, drivers or graphics applications) that actually works across distributions without extensive configuration work for the provider and the user.

Providing ONE integrated software download besides a basic download like it is done now is NOT a question about taking choice away from users (expert users that want the choice can just use the basic download and put things together themselves like they do now).

Integration is about making it easier for new developers to get started and fully grasp what can be done with JRuby without the extensive knowledge that you on the core team has. It is also about providing an integrated solution that other developers can depend on and refer to. Finally, it is about sending a message that the extras are fully "supported" by JRuby (and not just some experimental thingys).

Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and its users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I can't persuade you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my own alternative all-in-one distribution would be a good idea. Either it is official or it is not work doing.

/Morten



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Ola Bini
2007-05-27 19:27:40 UTC
Permalink
*//*Integration is about making it easier for new developers to get
started and fully grasp what can be done with JRuby without the
extensive knowledge that you on the core team has. It is also about
providing an integrated solution that other developers can depend on
and refer to. Finally, it is about sending a message that the extras
are fully "supported" by JRuby (and not just some experimental thingys).
I don't think this is valid at all. It's looking at it in a very
un-Open-Source way to say that the extras should be supported by JRuby.
I think it should be the other way around.
Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and its
users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I can't
persuade you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my own
alternative all-in-one distribution would be a good idea. Either it is
official or it is not work doing.
Once again, official is really not the question when talking Open Source
systems. And you don't need to do an alternative. Just provide an
all-in-one distribution patch, and if it seems good we will include it.
--
Ola Bini (http://ola-bini.blogspot.com)
JvYAML, RbYAML, JRuby and Jatha contributor
System Developer, Karolinska Institutet (http://www.ki.se)
OLogix Consulting (http://www.ologix.com)

"Yields falsehood when quined" yields falsehood when quined.



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M C
2007-05-27 19:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Ola Bini <ola.bini-***@public.gmane.org> skrev:I don't think this is valid at all. It's looking at it in a very
un-Open-Source way to say that the extras should be supported by JRuby.
I think it should be the other way around.
....

Once again, official is really not the question when talking Open Source
systems. And you don't need to do an alternative. Just provide an
all-in-one distribution patch, and if it seems good we will include it.
All this is a matter of opinion. I don't buy you argument that better integration and providing official distributions are wrong for open source and not in the open source way. You can say that you don't agree with my views though and I understand and respect that.

/Morten


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Charles Oliver Nutter
2007-05-27 19:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by M C
Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and its
users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I can't persuade
you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my own alternative
all-in-one distribution would be a good idea. Either it is official or
it is not work doing.
What about Nick's suggestion: a single gem that installs everything you
need for some purpose? Something like 'gem install jruby-on-rails' and
you get the whole shebang, plus some utility scripts to make it easier.

- Charlie

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M C
2007-05-27 19:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by M C
Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and its
users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I can't persuade
you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my own alternative
all-in-one distribution would be a good idea. Either it is official or
it is not work doing.
What about Nick's suggestion: a single gem that installs everything you
need for some purpose? Something like 'gem install jruby-on-rails' and
you get the whole shebang, plus some utility scripts to make it easier.
If I understand Nick's suggestion correctly, it would be a great(!) improvement.- Not as ambitious as I would like but close.

/Morten





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Tim Bray
2007-05-27 20:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Oliver Nutter
Post by M C
Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and
its users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I
can't persuade you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my
own alternative all-in-one distribution would be a good idea.
Either it is official or it is not work doing.
What about Nick's suggestion: a single gem that installs everything
you need for some purpose? Something like 'gem install jruby-on-
rails' and you get the whole shebang, plus some utility scripts to
make it easier.
Oh yes. That has to be a win. -Tim


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Thomas E Enebo
2007-05-27 21:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Oliver Nutter
Post by M C
Anyway, this is just my opinion of what would benefit JRuby and its
users. I am not going to run screaming for the hills if I can't persuade
you guys :-) ... And no, I don't think making my own alternative
all-in-one distribution would be a good idea. Either it is official or
it is not work doing.
What about Nick's suggestion: a single gem that installs everything you
need for some purpose? Something like 'gem install jruby-on-rails' and
you get the whole shebang, plus some utility scripts to make it easier.
+10

Many users will just want to to something simple and fast to get
going. Providing a gem which installs all the fun loving Rails stuff
sounds like a great idea to me (and I think I was also talking to
Morten about this at Rails conf too?). This is not as odds with
having a lean core either:

1. download jruby (the lean/lithe distro)
2. gem install rails-fun-time

Not too rough...a reasonable compromise of concerns.

-Tom
--
Blog: http://www.bloglines.com/blog/ThomasEEnebo
Email: enebo-***@public.gmane.org , tom.enebo-***@public.gmane.org

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Michael Papp
2007-05-27 23:10:18 UTC
Permalink
I have opted to chime in only once before, but I follow this list closely.
I have built many SDKs and frameworks over the years, and this might provide
a good distinction here. MRI (and JRuby) are implementations of the Ruby
language. It is always a give-and-take discussion about which features or
libraries to ship with a language implementation, but I have to side with
the 'lean' approach. This keeps the runtime from becoming too large, and
helps avoid building dependencies on libraries that may be superseded in the
not too distant future.

It sounds like this would be a great ancillary project to JRuby - building
gems or all-in-one distributions that bundle JRuby with Rails and other
Java/Ruby libraries (an Eclipse distribution would be a natural as well).
There is growing interest in this "value-added" approach to bundling open
source projects into "install and run" solutions for developers and
end-users alike. My time is somewhat limited, but I would certainly
consider initiating and contributing time to a project that creates and
distributes bundled JRuby deployments. Especially if I can enlist the
support and maybe some time from others on this list. From my reading on
this list, the actual mechanics of building is neither terribly difficult
nor (relatively) time-consuming. The real trick is coming to agreement on
what to offer in terms of bundled solutions. But the Rails package is a
no-brainer, and would represent a good way to kick off this project. But I
don't want to step on anyone's feet - perhaps Charles/Thomas/Nick would
prefer to keep these distros under their control.

I would also add that the MS analogy is not a very good one. MS Visual
Studio leverages functionality baked into the OS, and there are few willing
to take on the daunting task of offering alternatives. The open source
approach is about offering choices, and choice is more difficult than one
size fits all solutions. A JRuby package that meets one developer's needs
will not meet another's needs. But I'm sure it is possible to find some
common denominators that -most- people will accept and work from there.
--
Michael
Charles Oliver Nutter
2007-05-27 23:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Papp
It sounds like this would be a great ancillary project to JRuby -
building gems or all-in-one distributions that bundle JRuby with Rails
and other Java/Ruby libraries (an Eclipse distribution would be a
natural as well). There is growing interest in this "value-added"
approach to bundling open source projects into "install and run"
solutions for developers and end-users alike. My time is somewhat
limited, but I would certainly consider initiating and contributing time
to a project that creates and distributes bundled JRuby deployments.
Especially if I can enlist the support and maybe some time from others
on this list. From my reading on this list, the actual mechanics of
building is neither terribly difficult nor (relatively) time-consuming.
The real trick is coming to agreement on what to offer in terms of
bundled solutions. But the Rails package is a no-brainer, and would
represent a good way to kick off this project. But I don't want to step
on anyone's feet - perhaps Charles/Thomas/Nick would prefer to keep
these distros under their control.
I'd like to see a first version of the "jruby-rails" gem come up to
speed under the jruby-extras project on RubyForge. It has been a great
place to get projects started, despite gforge's inadequate tooling.
There are also many committers there with an interest in seeing ARJDBC,
GoldSpike, and the rest integrated "properly", so I'm sure they'd love
to have a hand in making a "complete" Gem run the way it ought.

If someone would like to head up this effort, and you're not already a
jruby-extras committer, let me know. Ideally, you would put something
primitive together as a seed for the project, and we can incorporate it
into the jruby-extras repo.

- Charlie

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Michael Papp
2007-05-27 23:38:07 UTC
Permalink
I agree with the approach you have outlined. I could certainly put together
a basic "jruby-rails" gem based on your documentation and the list archives
(and good old experimentation). I am not a jruby-extras committer but would
be willing to get this effort started if you will add me to the list. As
you suggest, let me put a basic package together and then we can discuss
next steps.

Michael
Post by Charles Oliver Nutter
Post by Michael Papp
It sounds like this would be a great ancillary project to JRuby -
building gems or all-in-one distributions that bundle JRuby with Rails
and other Java/Ruby libraries (an Eclipse distribution would be a
natural as well). There is growing interest in this "value-added"
approach to bundling open source projects into "install and run"
solutions for developers and end-users alike. My time is somewhat
limited, but I would certainly consider initiating and contributing time
to a project that creates and distributes bundled JRuby deployments.
Especially if I can enlist the support and maybe some time from others
on this list. From my reading on this list, the actual mechanics of
building is neither terribly difficult nor (relatively) time-consuming.
The real trick is coming to agreement on what to offer in terms of
bundled solutions. But the Rails package is a no-brainer, and would
represent a good way to kick off this project. But I don't want to step
on anyone's feet - perhaps Charles/Thomas/Nick would prefer to keep
these distros under their control.
I'd like to see a first version of the "jruby-rails" gem come up to
speed under the jruby-extras project on RubyForge. It has been a great
place to get projects started, despite gforge's inadequate tooling.
There are also many committers there with an interest in seeing ARJDBC,
GoldSpike, and the rest integrated "properly", so I'm sure they'd love
to have a hand in making a "complete" Gem run the way it ought.
If someone would like to head up this effort, and you're not already a
jruby-extras committer, let me know. Ideally, you would put something
primitive together as a seed for the project, and we can incorporate it
into the jruby-extras repo.
- Charlie
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